Blood Money: Feedback

[Barbaro]

What is your opinion of this game? What variations or tweaks would you make for this game? Etc.

We've completely forgot about the feedback threads because we've received feedback from several players during every game, but we'd like to open discussion up to everyone.

[Watsuki Shichiro]

This is not a long game. That's the first thing I noticed. Both games got to only 11 rounds, only half of the allotted rounds. The main reasons for that were the already formed alliances from previous rounds (these were the same groups from Round 2 aside from the Switcheroos) and the number of ways to get information.

Which leads to the second factor: information, which I was lacking since I was switched away from my alliance from Round 2. Since everyone had some sort of an alliance (excluding switched and inactives), most people already had a wealth of information to draw from. Since they could see who was in what room by looking from above, being in the same room, or using the same door, a group of three could easily keep track of who was where. And most groups were groups of 4 or 5, the people from different groups in Round 2.

There was no running unless someone knew where their target was, so anyone who ran was either stupid or allied against their target. If done well, more than half of the players would be killed by turn 5 or 6, and the winning alliance will be the group with more players in it. While there is some room for lying, it can be easily found out, so most people will hesitate to do so.

I would make the number of rooms larger and stop people from killing simply by using the same door. I understand learning who went through the same door as you, but being able to kill them without penalty is slightly harsh. Of course, if that counts as a Move and Kill, then it doesn't really matter, but I assume it doesn't because it's listed separately.

Another problem was killing from above. Players should be able to Move and Kill a player who is causing a commotion, but they should not be able to kill from a separate room without causing a commotion. This also helps speed up the game by making the upstairs rooms much more helpful than the downstairs ones, though that also makes it more likely to find people there. Maybe that could be changed to a Move and Kill instead of a kill from above?

I also think that contracts should have been allowed for free, but limited. If not limited, then they still should not be 100M yen. That is the amount of an entire diamond, and few people will be willing to risk that much.

Of course, the main problem that I had was withholding information too early, but that was my mistake, and I don't know how to do anything about that now.

Overall, it was a pretty good game, and I can't wait to see what's next!

[Aitou Kaichi]

Reading Shichiro's viewpoint implies that the 2 games were vastly different... So, my feedback may be based on some different stuff. (For example, I was double moving on a regular basis in our game)

Respond to our threads, just to let us know you are reading them. Otherwise, I'm talking to a brick wall... Especially if we ask questions... (Btw, at least one question still applies...)

The initial randomization gave a component of luck, and you saw it matter.

There was a possibility for an inactive to win by having his opponents kill each other off before they get to kill him until his victim is the only other player standing.

[Kaitani Katsumi]

I'd just like to mention that I support the 100mil price of a contract, considering the prize pool is potentially many times that. A well made contract should be your guarantee to profit - if you're willing to put in the effort. Also provided there's nobody trying to directly counteract your contract.

[Watsuki Shichiro]

The problem that I have with the contracts is that both people have to pay 100M yen. This not only uses up 200M yen which players will need to win back, but it also prevents many people from forming contracts. For some people, a contract is the only way to ensure complete trust, so they would be helpful to use, if only sparingly. However, anyone in debt or who has less than 100M yen has to trust their alliance completely and cannot take insurance against betrayal.

Up until now, I haven't bothered with contracts because of the cost and inconvenience, but I would like to use them to my advantage if possible. I agree with the high penalty for breaking a contract, but I don't think there should be such a high cost to simply enter one. Is it possible to have a single contract cost 100M yen and have the cost be split between members? Or maybe to halve the cost to 50M yen per member?

I think that contract use would improve the game by making it both harder and easier depending on how they're used. The money restrictions are not allowing them to be used, and I would like to see that change, if only slightly.

Oh, and I do agree that dealers should reply faster. Sometimes I would not get a response until after the round I asked it in ended, so it no longer mattered. And it just helps morale to know that dealers care about us enough to answer all our questions, even if they have to answer the same one over and over. ;D

[Aitou Kaichi]

I will agree that contract use never really happens with a 100M price tag. The debate is on whether or not that is a good thing, but as stands, they may as well not offer them.

Also, I just wish to confirm: Shichiro, noone in your group double-moved without knowing where their victim was? Double-moving seemed a bit more common in our group. Although I never saw any kills from above. Nor did I see any killings through doorways. With that in mind, does that change your viewpoints on those topics?

[Watsuki Shichiro]

Well, my opinions are obviously based on my game and mainly my own experiences. I was killed from above by a player who double-moved, likely getting information from an ally who I saw (and who saw me) when we used the same doors the previous round. I can't confirm that anyone killed by moving through the same door, but it was just something I noticed and think could be manipulated whether or not it was.

Two of the other double-moves that I noticed were immediately followed by a kill from that room, so that's the rest of the basis behind my claim. The other double-move I witnessed was likely a player fleeing a pursuer, but it's possible that s/he was pursuing instead. Obviously the two rounds were very different and maybe yours was less alliance-based? Ours seemed to have a few alliances from the start, so people seemed scared to make themselves known b/c it was likely that they would be killed.

I think that my points should be noted and taken into context. Obviously they're not supported by both games, but they seem supported by mine. Maybe more runthroughs would help us understand what can be manipulated unfairly and what people will tend to over or not use? Of course, I don't see how we can do another runthrough unless we brought in new players...

It's hard to say what exactly should be changed because they seemed very different. If nothing else, I still think that the place was too small for the number of rounds, or maybe rooms closed off too quickly? Overall it was a pretty well-balanced game and very little was blatantly unbalancing.

[Aisuke Setsuna]

Well, Chiro, there was actually a "Kill through Doorways" in our round. ^^ But I'll have to agree that there weren't as many double-moves in our round to the best of my knowledge. Maybe it's just because we're more cautious?

But I actually liked how the place was kind of small - it forced people to jumble up together in a big mess. The rooms closing was an annoyance at times when you realized you were stuck in a corner with only one way out, but overall, it was kind of fun to plan your movements.

lol - The only thing I don't get about the Doorway Killing is how you can get stabbed, continue going to whatever room you were going to, wait a turn, and then actually die. Awesome belated death.

But all in all, it was fun~~

[Aitou Kaichi]

I still wanna know how transfer bans actually work. Apparently, I'm unable to give money to people because... the dealers teleport in front of me every time I try to, slap me across the back of the head, and disappear before you can receive the money? If I try to give you the money again, rinse and repeat. Yeah... Flavour has to be ignored sometimes.

[Liar Game]

I still wanna know how transfer bans actually work. Apparently, I'm unable to give money to people because... the dealers teleport in front of me every time I try to, slap me across the back of the head, and disappear before you can receive the money? If I try to give you the money again, rinse and repeat. Yeah... Flavour has to be ignored sometimes.

To reiterate from before: all Bank Accounts remain frozen until further notice. If you have a golden marble, you can use it to make a transfer. Once you use it up, it's gone.

[Aitou Kaichi]

I meant flavour-wise. Just like killing someone in the doorway doesn't really work properly flavour-wise, because they still get to their destination, blocking bank accounts is just weird, flavour-wise.

[Watsuki Shichiro]

They confiscated all our money, or we actually have bank accounts which they locked from depositing/withdrawal/transfers. So that part can make some sense depending on the circumstances. I just don't quite understand how they'd be able to prevent us from subtly handing off a golden marble to someone to avoid using one up.

[Aitou Kaichi]

Why am I trusting the Liar Game Offices with my money? I can understand the transfer-locked money being done like that, and that totals up to ~500M amongst all players (unless there is another source of transfer-locked money besides the marble game)

Also, I note that the dealers came in, saw this thread, saw me say "Respond to our threads, just to let us know you are reading them. Otherwise, I'm talking to a brick wall... Especially if we ask questions... (Btw, at least one question still applies...)" ... and comment on our metaphors. Hi Brick-Wall-San!

[Watsuki Shichiro]

Wherever did I say you were trusting them with your money? I believe I said they confiscated it... as in against our will... I'm sure some people fought back, but they seem to have disappeared.

And the dealers just read what they want... as in the last question asked! I know that I had about six questions in my vault and a dealer came in and answered the last one, not even bothering with the others.

[Aitou Kaichi]

Over 24 hours and they didnt reply to your post indicating that they should reply to the other posts... Damn.

But seriously guys. Every single time you guys posted in the LGT1 feedback threads, I read it and attempted to reply to all your points (I say attempted because if I don't, it will turn out that I missed one). It shows that the points are being read, considered and discarded and taken into account when designing future games.