Delivery four!

[Petrushka]

Your final delivery is on its way!

Kuwabara Kimura has the top section of the chimney.
Suzuki Usagi has the section beneath him.
Aitou Kaichi has the section beneath her.
Ikenishi Sada has the bottom section.

You will each get a section of the chimney posted to your Vault. PM me stating whether you want it installed as DEFAULT, INVERSE, BACKWARD or BACKWARD-INVERTED.

So what excitement is coming in this final round?

Gift α +¥100M

Gift β +¥100M

Gift β -¥500k

-¥400M

A few of these need explaining:

• Gift α+¥100M gives the recipient a special perk ahead of the fourth round! Consider it a tactical advantage! To make it even sweeter, you get a hundred million lump sum, too!
  
• Gift β+¥100M and Gift β-¥500k both share a common destiny in the next round. One gets a hundred million lump sum, the other receives a token debt, because were are not completely heartless.

I believe that's all the explaining that needs to be done. A wonderfully tempting bonus game overall, I must say!

The presents will drop through each section in the described order. Remember this is the Liar Game, and you should stay on your guard at all times.

Two days, starting now!

[Kuwabara Kimura]

-400 and -500? That's way over the top. I thought you guys said we had a possitive balance. I don't get why two of us should get that many debt after winning an incredibly hard game like Blood Money...

Also, I don't get the token debt thing.

My block:

[Petrushka]

It's 500 thousand. Not 500 million.

[Kuwabara Kimura]

So the possitive balance is 1.5M + black letter? Bleh, still not enough as a "reward" game for beating Blood money, especially with the -400M thing on one player (and it's even worse if you consider that some combinations are impossible).

I can't shoulder that debt and if somebody else does, they'll lose all the profit they've gained during the whole damn tournament, while players at the revival round lose 100M at most. The same thing happened on the previous game, where at least one player was forced to bear a 100M debt while everyone profited at the RR. It's ridiculous.

You can't even blame it on us because we can't guess what items will show up, as we didn't even get a clue on them. The only clue we got (a possitive balance) was pretty much a missleading joke.

I'm very dissapointed at these games.

[Suzuki Usagi]

Completely ridiculous :/ even if you got all the best money-related gifts, you would still walk away with a just a 10M profit. And what Kimura says is true.

I'm guessing you're giving us this kind of debt because you don't like it when we talk and agree to do certain things and don't backstab each other? Well, that's another way of playing the Liar Game alright.

You probably don't like it as you don't find it entertaining, but it's not like you can do this as punishment. In a normal round or a Revival Round I'd understand that kind of frustration, but this is a Mystery Round, in which we're supposed to kill time until the next one and get some profit as a REWARD for doing well.

I'd understand -100M. Hell, I didn't really mind the -120M. But -400M? You've really outdone yourselves.

EDIT:


My block btw.

[Aitou Kaichi]

Dealers, correct me if I'm wrong, but the mystery rounds are intended as bonus rounds for the winners of the main rounds, correct? What kind of bonus round can peg someone with -400M? We kept quiet on the -100M of mystery round 2 (marbles), since it's your game and all, but this is too much. (And no, I don't count "keeping us on our toes" as valid, considering that I doubt you guys got rusty by not playing the planets game).

And the hilarious thing is, we might have taken this game as a chance to test ourselves against each other if there was a flat total prize, and no chance of failure. Say, 50M to the winner, and everyone else gets 0. I would have at least considered saying "Hey guys, let's take this as a chance to test ourselves without ganging up on the dealers." But, time and time again, you have failed to introduce such a simple concept, and instead, made these bonus rounds a potential penalty, and since we are allied, we have to take that into account and make sure not to penalize anyone too hard.

And, in total, the profits of this game are 1.5M... While you did say that "The one thing we assure you this game is positive sum overall.", and that could be as small as 1.5M, you know perfectly well that's trolling us... and I don't think trolling us is a suitable reward for a game with 2/10 chance of success.

[Ikenishi Sada]

I have to agree with Aitou-san, Suzuki-san and Kuwabara-san. -400M is more than we make in most rounds that we actually play, so to actually have one of us take that large of a debt is immensely hard on us. Especially when yen is a prominent key in keeping us alive in this tournament alone. I don't even have enough at this point, even while passing all the rounds and bonus rounds, to be able to carry such a heavy debt. On top of that, the most of us have already taken a negative of some kind, which makes it that much more difficult for us to shoulder an amount that significant. I wish that the dealers would kindly reconsider the amount.

Here is my block for the time being:

[Sagaro]

To comment on a few points in no particular order:

The mystery rounds are NOT simply bonus rounds for the winners. They have offered bonuses, but that's not their sole purpose, otherwise we would have called them "Bonus Rounds" and been done with it.

So you guys have elected to play co-operate games. That's excellent. But what of it? I agree: it is one strategy you're entitled to use. And you still are. You don't want to be the one to make hard choices? Fine: let another player do it on your behalf. Players have complained at the lack of challenge arising from these Mystery Rounds. It's a simple game with a harsh slap to it. If it doesn't fit into the strategies that have been played, try a new one. That much is a gameplay issue.

Yen is currency, not the key to staying alive. There's no secret here that players have been trying to keep one another afloat using yen. Great; continue. But what actually keeps people in-tournament is winning games. We are aware that people make transfers, but again, that's a player strategem. You encounter a roadblock, make a new route.

We're (potentially) on the doorstep of the finale. You guys are having to walk a very difficult path right now. And do remember that there ARE still MANY ways to sort this out. Of course, it only appears that we're leaving one of you out in the cold........

[Kuwabara Kimura]

Cut the crap. MR1 was a bonus round and most likely you guys were planning to make 2 and 3 bonus rounds as well. You just didn't like how we were smart and managed to Nao-ize the game, so you made them more harsh.

According to you, Sagaro, these are made to "keeping the winners on their toes". This is far from it. MR2 and 3 were both annoying games (and this one is poorly designed), which forced us to bear debts we did not deserve, as we are WINNERS. Aitou, Sada and I have never lost a game, yet we're stuck at this stupid games that shoot arrows to our knees.

And I don't even get your point there. What, if I complained that this game is too easy, next one will eliminate a winner? 'cause that's what you're implying.

Also, the rules of the game are made to be annoying. We're promised a possitive sum. What do we get? 1.5M. Oh, so smart! So sneaky! You guys so trullz! Please.

Your reply only annoyed me more, to be honest. You need to start listening to your players instead of trying to make them to stay quiet and play along. Yes, we know we have two ways of somewhat dodging the loss, we're not retarded, thank you very much, but they both represent a heavy hit to us, and I'm sick of taking hits because you want to keep us on our toes.

However, don't get me wrong. This game is not everything that has pissed me off so far. This is merely the drop that spilled the glass. You guys know what I mean.

I refuse to keep playing this mystery round. Have your money back. If you reject my refusal, then I'm quitting the tournament instead. And yes, quitting WILL bother me as hell.

[Aitou Kaichi]

Dec 18, 2011 15:39:09 GMT Sagaro said:

Players have complained at the lack of challenge arising from these Mystery Rounds. It's a simple game with a harsh slap to it.

OK... These two statements have got to be jokes. There is no other conclusion. The lack of challenge arising in MR1 was because Kimura and I made it happen. Not because the game wasn't challenging, but because 2 people put the challenge on themselves to get as close as possible to the ideal result of "everyone wins". MR2 wasn't challenging, it was just annoying. And this round is no different.

And the claim that this game is simple is an indication that this game wasn't playtested. At all. I've written a computer program to do the tough part, and we still end up finding that the situation we wish to create each time is impossible. How the hell do you call this simple? Even if I could diplomacy my way through all other players because I wanted certain people getting certain prizes, it's impossible to give the prizes in the exact way I want.

Now, to move on to meat of the subject, the -400M present. Let me present 2 situations, both starting with a player with 500M. Let's call that player X.
1) X enters the revival round. He loses, and pays 200M for a revival ticket. Considering the general amount of debt around the place, that should be reasonable. He ends up with 200M. (Total loss, 300M)
2) X enters the winner's game. He gets the second best prize for each round, except this one, where he ends up with -400M. He ends with 190M. (Total loss, 310M)

In other words, X is better off in the revival round, losing it, and buying a revival ticket, than he is getting a modest prize in each previous round and taking the -400M now. This one round undermines the validity of all previous rounds. It would be similar to making the points of the last round of the notoriety game have a x100 modifier. If we did something like that in LGT1, you guys would have screamed foul. Now, you guys have done it in LGT2, and we screamed foul, and you guys are saying "Oh, but without that, the game would be too easy."

Hell no. This game has been the first game where I've programmed something to check for possibilities in the rules themselves (not other people's statements about the rules). This game has been the first game where it was impossible, even with everyone working together towards a common goal, to create a specific outcome. This game has not been simple. Don't kid yourself. And a harsh slap was completely unnecessary.

[Aitou Kaichi]

Sigh. If Kimura is dropping out, I'll arrange it so that he gets the -400M and has the default position. Usagi, you have the most profit, so I'm dumping the -500k on you. If Kimura changes his mind, we can re-imburse him. It'll use up all our gold marbles, but meh. I'm dumping it here coz if anyone actually wanted to betray at this point, it'd be a dick move, you'd be adding -400M back into the game.

Kimura leaves it in the default position.
Usagi leaves it in the default position.
I put it backwards.
Sada puts it backwards and inverted.

Hope you dealers are happy. You've taken one of your best players and pissed him off repeatedly to the point where he is considering ragequitting. Including, but not limited to, your revelation in r2, the solution you chose for the mistake in r3, the entirety of mystery round 2, constant delays for no real reason. (To be honest, I have every right to be pissed off at most of that stuff, so I can definitely see where he is coming from. If you don't want to talk to him in fear of pissing him off further, come talk to me first. I am willing to act as a middle man here, since it's verging on necessary at this point.)

[Liar Game]

Regarding this mystery round, the Dealers have discussed this and the following adjustments have been made:

• The -¥400 million gift has been reduced to -¥300 million.
  
• The "Gift α +¥100M" has been adjusted to "Gift α + ¥150M."
  
• There has been a 24 hour extension granted to this game.

Any additional information and a full-length response/apology to the complaints will be forthcoming over the next couple of days.

[Barbaro]

I'm just dropping in here to say the following, and we'll discuss this at length later.

We are a community, first and foremost. And as leaders of the community we've clearly lost our way and become more antaonistic than needed. Our Winner's Rounds have not been good; we invest more time and energy in other games when we should be much clearer about these, and our intentions have been harmful gags at the expense of players who mean the world to us. We have been abusive when we should have been rewarding.

I sincerely apologize. You have every right to vent and we will have our discussion as soon as I am available after wednesday.

[Aitou Kaichi]

Thanks for modifying that, admin-account-user (probably Sagaro), and thanks for the apology, Barbaro.

[Kuwabara Kimura]

Ok. Thanks for the modification, sorry if I was (too) rude. It really got me pissed. Although what I most appreciate here is the apology.

I'm staying.